Talk:Saddam Hussein/naming contains the collected discussion on the naming of Saddam Hussein. Please do not attempt to change the use of Saddam's name in this article without reading and understanding the archived discussion. Thank you. The archive includes the following issues:
"Saddam" vs "Hussein" vs "Saddam Hussein" as the short form of the name in the article.
Whether there should be some form of disclaimer regards which is "correct" on the article.
Transliterations: Husayn vs Hussain.
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"...which stages the story ad nasuem..." is incorrect; the term is "ad nauseam." If the word is misspelled in the passage being quoted, there should be a [sic] after "nasuem." ~~Mpaniello~~
"Hussein's rule was a repressive dictatorship[12] notorious for it's human rights abuses." You cite that he was a dictator but not that he was notorious for human rights abuses. While it may seem obvious (sic) to westerners it needs a solid citation. -thanks
the current of photo of saddam isnt the best, i prefered the one we agreed on last time, i dont know why i was replaced?
if anyone has good photos of saddam in the 90s feel free to show new ones, but i think the one that was shown was good idk why it was removed. Local Mandaean (talk) 07:52, 13 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I think this photo is the best photo for Saddam, due to it being the official photograph.
this was taken before Saddam became president and there is nowhere references regarding Saddam's official portrait. Also this is not a sharp image
Saddam Hussein 1979 (3x4 cropped).jpg Saddam was not 1950s era leader, whose image would be better in black/white. He ruled until 21st century, when color photos became common. So a color photo like this is better. It represents Saddam in 1979, upon taking power, when Iraq was not in a state of war. Kharbaan Ghaltaan (talk) 22:11, 6 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Let me do google image search...
The original portrait contained an Arabic caption saying "Mr. Saddam Hussein, Chairman of the Revolutionary Command Council, President of the Republic of Iraq." This means it is likely from late 1979 when he first became President when he was 42 years old. Then again this is one of many portraits of him floating around the web, most of them without info, so I could be mistaken. Erose9210 (talk) 16:33, 8 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
IDK, the photo on the page is mostly the same angle and is in color taken while he was in charge. Not a big deal either way.
what should be done of lead photo.....The current is photo, i don't like it....It shows Saddam an old leader of black and white era....Also this was not taken at the time his presidency and is not sharp image.....I didn't found any cite as official portrait.....not even in Arabic....Just this image was found every offices and schools thats it.... This image is a lot better:
You shouldn't get angry over a small matter when there major issues with the substance of the article. Preference doesn't matter. Erose9210 (talk) 16:24, 8 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Hello editors, I would like to revive this discussion of a lead image photo. This discussion will include a gallery, and any editor is welcome to add suggestions; mine is number 1, which is of color and high resolution. 𝚈𝚘𝚟𝚝 (𝚝𝚊𝚕𝚔𝚟𝚝) 18:21, 24 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Skitash has made huge changes to the article without consulting the talk page this is wrong, i request anyone with the reverting thing to take it back, because alot of infomation has been incorrectly removed, and replaced with a bias and untrue infomation, making saddams regime look like a ethnic-sunni ran state, and he has cited that his reason is because of the word-limits, but this does not give him justification to remove so much infomation without consulting the talk page, it should not be done again, i hope @Kharbaan Ghaltaan you will be able to fix this up. Local Mandaean (talk) 07:33, 12 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
As I mentioned, the size of the article exceeded the limit laid out in WP:SIZERULE and had to be shortened. Even after my edits, it's still too long and requires further trimming to meet this standard. The original version was bloated with redundant and irrelevant details. For example, #Peace treaty with Iran was excessively repetitive: [1]:
"The agreement was based on the principles of territorial integrity, respect for sovereignty, non-interference in internal affairs, and the peaceful resolution of disputes. The agreement established a new border line along the Shatt al-Arab, dividing the waterway equally between Iran and Iraq up to the midpoint. Iran made significant concessions in the agreement, including relinquishing its claims on the eastern bank of the Shatt al-Arab, which had been under Iranian control. They also pledged to withdraw support for the Kurds. Saddam aimed to secure Iraq's territorial claims, particularly regarding the Shatt al-Arab waterway, which had been a longstanding source of contention between Iran and Iraq. Both parties recognized each other's sovereignty and territorial integrity, affirming the principle of non-aggression. The agreement called for the restoration of full diplomatic relations between Iran and Iraq, including the exchange of ambassadors. The agreement emphasized the importance of economic cooperation between the two countries, particularly in areas such as trade, transport, and joint development projects. The signing of the Algiers Agreement occurred during a period of relative stability in Iraq, with Saddam gradually consolidating power within the ruling Ba'ath Party. Saddam played a pivotal role in the negotiations leading up to the Algiers Agreement, representing Iraq's interests. Saddam's growing influence within the government allowed him to shape Iraq's approach and stance during the negotiation process. Following the agreement, Iraq and Iran restored full diplomatic relations and exchanged ambassadors, representing a significant diplomatic breakthrough. The Shah withdrew support of the Kurds, who were promptly defeated by the Iraqis. The agreement emphasized the importance of economic cooperation between Iraq and Iran, particularly in areas like trade and joint development projects. This agreement, while ultimately unable to prevent future hostilities, remained a notable diplomatic achievement for Iraq during Saddam's early political career."
This section repeated numerous points such as "territorial integrity," "full diplomatic relations," and word-for-word "The agreement emphasized the importance of economic cooperation between the two countries, particularly in areas...," bloating the article while adding no value.
You've said the changes are "making saddams regime look like a ethnic-sunni ran state" which is simply not true. #Domestic policies clearly states that Saddam "appointed members of various religious and ethnic minorities to high-ranking positions and as representatives based on loyalty to his regime." Again, this section was incredibly redundant, listing minority appointments across ethnic groups with repetitive roles and excessive names. Any appropriate information belongs in Ba'athist Iraq if anything per WP:SUMMARY. Skitash (talk) 11:59, 12 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Ba'athist Iraq is article of a former country. Adding minority officers' name to that article is meaningless. Adding these contents in article of Saddam make sense. In Ba'athist Iraq article, one paragraph is enough for inclusion of minority. And regarding size limit, instead of wiping off entire content, you can try to short it. And if not then pls raise this issue on talk page. You did same with infobox image. If the consensus didn't agreed on my choice, then they didn't agreed on @Skitash's choice as well. Before making a major removal or infobox image related issues, pls raise the issue on talk page and notify active users in this topic Kharbaan Ghaltaan (talk) 18:51, 12 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
You will find a lot contents like Saddam protected Jews and Christians, allowed them in society, in both English and Arabic. There are many articles in Arabic titled as "Was Saddam Hussein Sectarian", and listed minority officials in Saddam's government etc. Kharbaan Ghaltaan (talk) 19:37, 12 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding size, the lead section itself is very lengthy. We must short the lead section first. Other paragraphs, if long, that make some sense to an extent Kharbaan Ghaltaan (talk) 18:53, 12 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The paragraph about the peace treaty with Iran does not seem to be repetitive or redundant. It may be a bit wordy, but it is very important to include as it is very relevant for the history of Ba'athist Iraq. The "repetition" you mention adds value to the text because it makes the clauses of the treaty much clearer and easier to understand for the reader.
Local Mandaean is right to say that the "trimming" of the article makes Saddam's regime look like a ethnic-sunni ran state as that is precisely what was removed to "trim" the article down. Shortening the article does not justify removing tons of important and useful information about the internal affairs of Ba'athist Iraq, especially without mentioning it in the talk page or gaining consensus.
As Kharbaan Ghaltaan highlights, Iraq is a nation that has had problems with sectarianism since its independence in 1932. It is therefore important to include the information about diversity in government. KiddKrazy2 (talk) 10:50, 13 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The article was perfect as it was before it became bloated with redundancy and irrelevant information. Once again, I kindly suggest reviewing how other politician articles are structured. Skitash (talk) 19:33, 14 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Reducing everything was structured??? Previously it was completely biased....Look at George W. Bush, Leonid Brezhnev, and Josip Broz Tito, there is a lot of things mentioned. Specially George W Bush's. You have just removed tons of information from this article. George Bush was president just for 8 years, less 3x less than Saddam's. Yet his article has tons of content. I, @Local Mandaean and fellow users add tons of information, yet you trimmed it, in the name of redundancy, irrelevancy and size. Domestic policies>>>Diversity in leadership, ethnic and religion, and economy, Foreign Affairs>>>Israel-Palestine, U.S, are not at all irrelevant. These all topics are completely relevant to Saddam. Your version is just biased one. George Bush's invasion of Iraq led to killing of over a million people in Iraq. Yet he is not labelled as war criminal. I do agree that he is not legally convicted by an official body, but his article don;t even have a sentence such as "Conversely, Bush is perceived as "war criminal", primarily in the Arab and Muslim world, due to his wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, and massive causalities"..... Kharbaan Ghaltaan (talk) 20:42, 14 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here. WP:SIZERULE is a Wikipedia policy which we're all expected to follow. Just because the articles for Bush or Tito are longer doesn’t mean this one should be too (see WP:WHATABOUT). Skitash (talk) 21:02, 14 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
"Just because the articles for Bush or Tito are longer doesn’t mean this one should be too (see
)", it is not necessary for articles to follow exact each and every rule. I’m saying that nothing is irrelevant or redundant. Regarding WP:WHATABOUT and size, okay, let's agree on that. But for specific sections, if they’re lengthy, it should apply to those sections, not the entire article. Saddam’s article must be treated the same way as articles about Bush or Tito. There’s a lot of content and information that needs to be included about Saddam. Additionally, results from Google, ChatGPT, and other sources are all derived from Wikipedia. Domestic policies>>>Diversity in leadership, ethnic and religion, and economy, Foreign Affairs>>>Israel-Palestine, U.S, are not at all irrelevant. These all topics are completely relevant to Saddam. Your version is just biased one.
"it is not necessary for articles to follow exact each and every rule" Are you suggesting that we disregard Wikipedia policy?
"I’m saying that nothing is irrelevant or redundant" That's objectively false. Please take a look at my comment where I pointed out that your bloated paragraph excessively repeats phrases and sentences and adds little value to the article.
"But for specific sections, if they’re lengthy, it should apply to those sections, not the entire article" Trimming lengthy sections is how we manage article size.
When it comes to trimming down the page, why did you only "trim down" the page by removing a lot of useful information about diversity in leadership and religious tolerance? It was a good addition to the article and not redundant, and it is important to include, as Iraq is a nation that has had problems with sectarianism. KiddKrazy2 (talk) 09:42, 19 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Abo Yemen I've already explained how the added content is not only excessively repetitive but also in violation of WP:ARTICLESIZE. Not to mention the awkward phrasing, grammar issues, and countless spelling errors such as "synagoagues," "endrosed," "On other hands," "the decree did not take in-effect," "foriegn ministers," "on the day of Jewish festival of Sukkot," "Being refrained from sensitive politics, allowed Assyrians to preserve," "citing a proof by Saddam himself." No offense, but this raises serious WP:CIR concerns. Including content in this state does more harm than good and lowers the quality of the article. Skitash (talk) 14:04, 19 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Black and white photos are used for persons mostly of 1920 to 1960s era. Look at U.S and British figures' pages. Most of the images are in color. People will say that is America so there have been advance cameras. Oh Really. You will find a lot of videos of Saddam on youtube in color version. It is even in Arabic (means viewed only by Arabs and hence not much views from others). Also Saddam was president not in b/w era. So thats why. Or better is to use b/w photos for a particular period. Like for sections in this article until 1979, we can use b/w pics. While for rest we can use color. As color pics after 1980s are available Kharbaan Ghaltaan (talk) 18:48, 14 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I just took a scan through the article today, and i have realized almost all the postive things saddam did for Iraq have been removed over-time, this includes saddams literacy compaign he conducted which was one of the most succesful in the world, and Iraqs healthcare system pre-90s which was some of the best in the entire Arab world, aswell as his reforms in the education system, i remenber when someone moved all of it to his vice president section and we let it go, but it looks like alot of it has been watered down and removed? Do you guys think we should readd his postive contributions to Iraq in his presidental section? because at this time it shows saddam as just a war-lord instead of an actual president, since his presidental section is literally just the iran-iraq war, the gulf war, the anfal, and the israeli-arab conflict, this seems very one-sided to not show both sides, i believe this violates wikipedias non-bias, and i believe we should scale down the war sections of his article, since you can just find the already huge articles on them, we should just give some context to the war, and link it to the actual articles, in this way we ensure we have enough space to write more about saddams regime and how the iraqi people lived and how their lives were affected more directly, instead of just talking about war. Tell me your opinions, @Skitash @Kharbaan Ghaltaan @SonOfBabylon1 @KiddKrazy @Abo Yemen | Apologies if i didnt @ you, Local Mandaean (talk) 00:52, 27 April 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I really do think it should be re-added. Since the size of the articles has been a concern for some editors here, i think a good resolution is to shorten down the war sections (and add a "main article:" header over it for those who want to read the full article) and re-add the positive aspects of his reign, which include:
The campaign undertaken by Saddam to increase literacy rates and reforms in the educational system.
Improvements in the Iraqi economy and infastructure.
Improvements in Women's Rights.
The introduction of free and universal healthcare and education in Iraq.
Religious and ethnic tolerance.
Strengthening of the army. (4th largest in the world at a point).
Securing stability in Iraq. (a historically unstable country).
level-4 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
KiddKrazy2 (talk) 14:53, 14 March 2025 (UTC)
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File:Fedayeen of Saddam militants marching.jpg
File:Saddam Hussein's speech to the iraqi soldiers in 1990.webp
saddam and Kamel Hana Gegeo
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